In Special Episode 4 of the Miracle Renegade podcast, Christian breaches the subject of depression with co-host and spiritual teacher Maureen. Drawing from his personal experiences, he asks: Is the Coronavirus – which is making self-isolation and social distancing a necessity in 2020 – affecting all of our mental health for the worse? And if it is, “How do you root out that depression?” Maureen’s answer lies in our willingness to step back from the illusions we see through the body’s eyes, turning instead to Source for what is True.


Topics addressed in this episode include:

  • Dealing with anxiety and depression in the age of COVID19
  • The connection between depression and boredom
  • The world of illusion – passed down, generation to generation 
  • How to stop run-away, depressive thoughts 
  • Separation vs. connectedness: the root of depression
  • Using mindfulness and deep breathing to transform anxiety into peace

“There are only two ways to live your life. One is as though nothing is a miracle. The other is as though everything is.” – Albert Einstein 

“Dreams are perceptual temper tantrums, in which you literally scream, “I want it thus!”  – A Course In Miracles  [T-18.II.4:1]

Learn more about Miracle Mindedness™ and Miracle Matrixing™ on Maureen’s Website

In these special release episodes of Miracle Renegade, Maureen and Christian take the covid-19 conversation to the Soul.

Support us on Patreon and get access to bonus recordings, meditations, outtakes and more!

For behind-the-scene updates and a little taste of the miraculous everyday, follow @miraclerenegade on Instagram 

Produced with ☕️ + 💜 by Missing Link Studios


Episode 4. Shedding Light on Depression 

Christian: [00:00:00] I’m Christian Camarena

[00:00:01] Maureen: [00:00:01] and I’m Maureen Whitehouse.

[00:00:02] Christian: [00:00:02] And this is Miracle Renegade. I’ve been thinking about this subject for many years. I came into this whole practice – spirituality, trying to find myself –  because nothing was getting through this constant numb that I lived through for like 18 years. I did not feel a thing.  And there were times where it got so dark that I was going to kill myself. There were times that I just kind of like floated through space. There’s years  I don’t remember. And I tried the regular doctor therapy. I never did antidepressants or anything, but I was depressed by far. I was depressed. I was trying  the spiritual teachers as well, but none of their words would get through nothing was practical and it always seemed like they were talking from a place of bliss. Like they were talking from above and it felt a little bit condescending a lot at the time.

[00:00:59] I know that a lot of that comes from me, but I’m seeing during the pandemic and the self quarantine and how people are getting used to this living, versus social animals, we need to bounce off of each other.  We need peace. We need joy. We need to see the outside. And I’m seeing that everyone is treating this situation like it’s a great thing. What if it only makes things worse because you need each other? So my question is how do you root out that depression?

[00:01:33] Maureen: [00:01:33] Okay.  This is a powerful topic, I’m really happy you’re bringing it up. And I’m really happy that you’re brave enough to have led us into this discussion saying the things you have about yourself and your own experience. And I’d like people just to sit back for a moment and listen to this with a real objective mind so that you’re not.

[00:01:54] Making any judgements as we speak, just listen to the whole story, because that’s exactly what leads to depression is just isolating thoughts and having it be one depressing, or I would even say judgmental thought after the other. If at the time you were feeling this great depression that you were in the midst of where you said, like you don’t even remember years at a time, you’ll notice if you could have been a fly on the wall in your own life, or just to been in that objective space where you were watching yourself, you would see that there was a pattern that you didn’t know how to get out of at the time.

[00:02:31] Christian: [00:02:31] Hmm.

[00:02:31] Maureen: [00:02:31] Where you were thinking in very finite terms. Fear is very finite. It has a very short fuse and that’s why people get angry when they’re fearful. It has a very short storyline. It’s story after story, after story that are all disconnected. So  in terms of when someone would label themselves as depressed, you’re thinking short thoughts that are disconnected that are depressing one after the other, after the other.

[00:03:04] So let’s just look at depression, what it is. If you think of that word, just take the word itself  and start to look at it. It feels like depression, you’re pushing down on yourself. You’re pressing yourself into a mode or a label or a finite kind of a picture.

[00:03:24] Christian: [00:03:24] Oh yeah.

[00:03:25] Maureen: [00:03:25] And that never feels freeing. That never feels like our natural nature to be expansive and creative and resourceful and amazing.

[00:03:34] Christian: [00:03:34] A lot of that stuff is confirmed by your relationships, by what you do as a job, your purpose in life, your roles in life. And I understand that that is all connective, but at the same time, you’re essentially describing life.

[00:03:52]Maureen: [00:03:52] You mean showing up to fragmented situations?

[00:03:56] Christian: [00:03:56] Yeah. Like I might be a brother in one situation. I might be a coworker in another situation, and those are still depressing me into this sort of role that I have to live through. And it’s kind of crushing my creative  spirit.

[00:04:12] Maureen: [00:04:12] True. And so this is what you want to notice for anyone who’s ever felt depression or is in the throws of depression or seeing that depression could be amplified by a situation like a pandemic where you’re isolated or stuck even further into a motive operandum that doesn’t feel expensive or comfortable.

[00:04:32] If you’re feeling that you’re facing this, or know anyone who is in the midst of this kind of experience, this is what you want to know: that our True Nature, our Truest Identity always feels like home. It feels like home because you have a baseline of peace and ease and security and safety in that space.  It’s absolutely accepting. It’s absolutely loving unconditionally, so you’re never going to be dropped. It’s not judgmental in the least. And it doesn’t feel as though you’re separate from any one or any thing when you’re in that mode of true deep resonance , because it is the voice of your best interest, but at the same time, the voice of everyone’s best interest, it’s a unifying universal aspect of us. It’s the Allness because it’s all inclusive. So when you win, everyone wins. you know that you’re at one with everyone, because it just gives you this bigger sense of completion in being part of the whole, even when the whole happens to be suffering.

[00:05:41] Christian: [00:05:41] Yeah.

[00:05:41] Maureen: [00:05:41] It acts from a place of absolute connectivity and completion that it’s more like a stepping back and “deepening into” than it is a jump to kind of impulse. It’s a deepening and leaning in to this aspect of ourselves that’s absolutely comfortable with ourselves.

[00:06:04] Christian: [00:06:04] I want to go back to that fragmented part because it’s very interesting. I’ve worked with many brilliant people. People that you would normally not think that they’re very, capable or smart, but it’s because parts of themselves get squashed and whatever situation they’re in. There are people that don’t come to this as “I want to be a superhero” or anything like that. They come in saying, I wish I could help, but I can’t. Because, blank.

[00:06:37] Maureen: [00:06:37] Now think about that thought that fills in the blank. Is it truly humble or falsely humble in that I’m not good enough as the falsely humble self? The one who’s truly connected, actually doesn’t have a thought about how you’re perceived or how you show up. It has an impulse to love, really show up as the embodiment of love and soothing and caring and connectivity.

[00:07:04] So, you know that if you’re not there yourself, you can’t bring someone else there because it’s you connecting to the Truth of you first, which then has the  amazing infinite capacity to connect with others and bring them to that place that you’re already connected with. So it’s more of being a bridge when you are connected.

[00:07:25] So when you’re depressed, it’s because you forgot you’re the bridge. You forgot that you’re the one who shows up here and maybe you’re more sensitive. That’s the case for a lot of people who are depressed, they might be the one who has the sensitivity to feel this world is a dysfunction. You know, they’re people walking around everywhere who are disconnected from who they truly are. And at times it’s even condoned and encouraged.

[00:07:54] Christian: [00:07:54] I mean, that’s how some people make a lot of money or become president

[00:07:58] Maureen: [00:07:58] Or become “successful”. And so we have this idea and ideal of success that often means dismissal of your truest, most powerful, most important aspects of yourself.

[00:08:11] And so when we’re disconnected from who we truly are, we are absolutely depressed because we’re missing the very best part of ourselves. It’s like, we’re constantly looking to fill a void that we know is an imperative for us, but we’re playing in the wrong ballpark.

[00:08:30] Christian: [00:08:30] Yeah.

[00:08:31] Maureen: [00:08:31] We’re not even in the place where we can find an answer. So if you look back at what I began describing depression as, it’s this perpetual idea that there’s something wrong with you, which everyone feels when they don’t feel connected to who they truly are. This is part of the human condition. The human condition believes we are these physical bodies and by dressing them up and primping them and dolling them up and doing all kinds of things that make it comfortable and appear to be safe and appear to be secure, that’s what life is. That’s nothing but disconnect. That’s nothing but using the form to try to make an identity. It’s like having a paper doll after awhile .

[00:09:18] Christian: [00:09:18] If that’s all you knew and that’s all you grew up with, and then somebody else is telling you, it’s not, why should you believe them?

[00:09:26] Maureen: [00:09:26] That’s not the truth? Or telling them? What would the people be telling you that you are talking about?

[00:09:31] Christian: [00:09:31] I’m just talking about, like, let’s say I pick up a book on Buddhism, right. And they say that there is more. But in my reality, all I do is put on my pants. I go out, I do my job and I don’t see the “more” in what this book is telling me.

[00:09:46] Maureen: [00:09:46] Ok

[00:09:47] Christian: [00:09:47] Even though it’s a, you know, a spiritual master or a helper or something, you don’t believe those things. So how can someone who doesn’t know, hope to realize that?

[00:10:00] What you just said the most important word, hope. At least it gives hope that there’s some kind of rhyme or reason to this. And at best when someone is depressed or feeling really bad and separate from who they truly are, this is what a true spiritual teacher is meant to embody: the way out or the oasis or the light at the end of the tunnel.

[00:10:21] They’re not meant to say follow me. They’re meant to say,  practice these things that I know firsthand, practice these things that in my own experience, my personal experience, brought me to a place of peace and ease and even possibly transcendence. I now see the world differently, but I’m no different from you. We all begin in this place that pain is the great equalizer.

[00:10:44] Hmm.

[00:10:45]Maureen: [00:10:45] There are a great deal of spiritual teachers who are out there,  even on the planet today, who came to their spiritual realizations, because they were in deep depression, suicidal, and in a place where they just “couldn’t live with themselves anymore” and just couldn’t “do it” anymore. And then they stepped back and said, “wait a minute. I can’t live with myself anymore? That must be two people. Who’s the one who can’t live with themselves? And who am I, if I’m the one who can’t live with myself?” and all of a sudden blow their minds and come to a place where they realize, “Oh, there’s two of me.”

[00:11:23] Christian: [00:11:23] Hmm.

[00:11:24] Maureen: [00:11:24] “There’s the Divinity, the truth of me, the peace of me, the wholeness of me and the one who’s separate from that.”

[00:11:31] Good luck being separate from that.

[00:11:33] Christian: [00:11:33] Hmm.

[00:11:34] Maureen: [00:11:34] Because you’re going to have to live by the world’s terms. And when there’s things like panic and chaos and pandemics, it’s not easy living by the world’s terms. There must be more than this.

[00:11:47] Christian: [00:11:47] Hmm.

[00:11:47] Maureen: [00:11:47] You know, where’s the peace in this? Where do I find peace in the midst of pain?  If you only have an orientation that’s solely rooted in the world while the world is in chaos, you’re going to have a very hard time finding peace.

[00:12:02] Christian: [00:12:02] Yeah.

[00:12:02]Maureen: [00:12:02] Sometimes it’s easier just to default to giving someone the finger on the highway or to getting angry at somebody who bumps up against you in a supermarket, especially during a pandemic

[00:12:12] Christian: [00:12:12] Yeah.

[00:12:12] Maureen: [00:12:12] When it’s “every man for himself” to some people, who are grabbing extra things from the grocery store that they don’t really need.

[00:12:20] Christian: [00:12:20] Or even something larger where the person has to go to their job because,  no one is there to man it. Like it could even be bigger than that…  you have to go because, if not, “I don’t have unemployment. I don’t have benefits.”



Seeing Self only as Function [00:12:36]

Maureen: [00:12:36] One thing about this pandemic, that’s really powerful and important is that people who, before this could be depressed in life cause they solely saw themselves as a function –  as somebody who was stocking shelves or somebody who is checking out things in a cash register or somebody who was taking people’s temperature in a hospital –  now they’re seeing they’re the heroes. You know, I love this flip-flop because people are really saying these are the angels on the front lines.

[00:13:01] This takes heart and Soul and courage to show up. Even if you feel at first, it’s just for a paycheck.

[00:13:06] Christian: [00:13:06] Hmm.

[00:13:07] Maureen: [00:13:07] I really highly recommend for anybody out there who’s on the front lines in any way like this,  allowing yourself to feel how important you are maybe for the first time, if you’ve only viewed yourself as a function before this and how amazing you are and how you are rising above  to show up in a world that really, really, really needs you.

[00:13:28] You know, this is the way that we begin to see how valuable the people are, who typically think of themselves as just functions.

[00:13:35] Christian: [00:13:35] Hmm.

[00:13:36] Maureen: [00:13:36] Think about now how different you’ll feel about the people in restaurants who serve you.

[00:13:42] Christian: [00:13:42] Yeah.

[00:13:43] Maureen: [00:13:43] And the people who seat you at tables, the people who are cooking for you and preparing for you, think of how this allows  you to see with a heart and mind that’s more akin to who you truly are.

[00:13:57] If you were to really look at yourself through the eyes of the Divine, I can only say this and barely keep myself from tearing up when I say it: you are so impeccably loved by who you truly are.

[00:14:12] Christian: [00:14:12] Hmm.

[00:14:13] Maureen: [00:14:13] Who has such a vast amount of respect and sits in awe of your capacity to  pretend that you’re small enough to just fit into a human body and show up in life with a small identity and label on yourself, when you’re so vast. I will tell you this, all of our pain comes from denying our Greatness.

[00:14:37]Christian: [00:14:37] Hmm.

[00:14:37] Maureen: [00:14:37] We have an Author – with a capital A – Who created you as perfection, not the human body necessarily, but the Spirit of you, the Soul of you.

[00:14:49] Each of us has this, and I’ll tell you, soft cushy lives don’t necessarily bring this out in us, and you can see this by people who are now at home during this pandemic. They’re getting bored if they have a soft, cushy existence.

[00:15:03] Christian: [00:15:03] Hmm.

[00:15:03] Maureen: [00:15:03] Too much means that you’re also denying who you are. And I’m not saying run out there and try to fix and heal the world. You know, you’re going to have to do this first as an inside job. So know that boredom is akin to depression in that you have a Spirit that’s so expansive and bright and creative. Find something in your immediate space to make better.

[00:15:30] Christian: [00:15:30] Hmm.

[00:15:30] Maureen: [00:15:30] Even if it’s just folding socks. Even if it’s just, you know, fixing a door that squeaks in your home or painting a wall, that’s been driving you crazy.

[00:15:39] Christian: [00:15:39] Hmm.

[00:15:40] Maureen: [00:15:40] I’m not saying you have to do things in order to know who you are, but if you can’t be in a space right now where you’re using what’s right in front of you to be in awe of what you are and who you are, then you’re missing the point.

[00:15:57] If you  say I’m going to be bored at home, look around you now. There’s something to create with. We have this creative spirit that we’ve dimmed down.



Finding Love in your Space [00:16:06]

[00:16:06]Now what, if you, instead of seeing a room that you’re in, that you’re occupying way too much these days with the pandemic, what if judging the room that you’re in has really made you feel even worse, less motivated, you don’t want to clean it. You don’t want to do anything. You’re feeling yourself really disconnected from the Source of peace and the part of you that’s the Truth of you. What if you just sat in the room that you’re in, said, “I don’t know what it is, but I love it.” And then, let yourself just look around until you find something you really do love. That’s why one of our mantras here in Miracle Renegade is, “I don’t know what it is, but I love it.”

[00:16:47] And then what if that’s accumulated dust because you haven’t paid attention to it in awhile?  That one thing that you love so much? What if it’s time to take out something that you’ve loved, but you shoved into a corner or under a box because you had all these other things that you had to do, even though they made you feel depressed.



Take Time for Yourself in the Morning [00:17:07]

[00:17:07]So what you want to notice now is that the utmost love, is when you can be connected to who you Truly are, and that takes a bit of time where you choose to be alone;  now this time is for me first. And I know this is going to be challenging for people to hear,  don’t think I’m just completely oblivious because I know there are people out there who have little kids and multiple family members that they care for or care about in their homes right now, that seem to be kind of on top of each other at this point. Be sure you get some space.

[00:17:40] And even, as I’ve said multiple times, even if it’s just before you open your eyes in the morning, keep your eyes closed deliberately a little bit longer. Spend some quality time with yourself without performing or without doing any unending tasks that we can give ourselves to do all day ’til we fall asleep in bed at night just exhausted. Instead, take that time when you first wake up in the morning – this is golden time – and allow yourself just to connect. With something more, the aspect of you that doesn’t judge, that doesn’t perform. That is in peace. This is not you following anybody else or anybody else’s mandates or any teachers out there.

[00:18:20] Just let yourself be with yourself kindly and compassionately and with love and presence, because guess what, that’s how the truest aspect of you thinks, and is, with you. With utmost kindness and compassion and love and appreciation, knowing who you are when you’re not being disconnected and it sits there and abides there in the space of wholeness and completion waiting for you to arrive.

[00:18:51] If you arrive in the morning in a place deliberately, even if you had a rough night  or whatever’s going on in your life in general, and you let yourself just do the same thing with yourself, that the true part of you is doing with yourself – just loving you right now. Just breathing through you right now. Just being at ease and at peace right now. Just not needing to know what it is, but love it right now. Then you’re going to feel yourself, start to merge with who you really are.

[00:19:24] Christian: [00:19:24] Hmm.

[00:19:25] Maureen: [00:19:25] It’s not a performance, it’s a merge. It’s a true merge with who you are.

[00:19:32] Remember the ego or the one that performs and does things all day long and the one that feels depressed or makes us believe we’re depressed, is the voice of separation.

[00:19:41] Christian: [00:19:41] Hmm.

[00:19:42] Maureen: [00:19:42] What you want to do first thing in the morning and last thing at night is merge with who you really are. Non-performing, just breathing, breathing in that breath and exhaling that breath out into the world to gift other people. Breathing in that breath, the Spirit, the Soul of you and exhaling peace and ease in your life with other people.

[00:20:05] Now look over here on the other side where the depressed person is. First thing in the morning, you have a thought and it’s an assault. Whatever the thought is, it’s going to be an assault, on you, and a negation of the truth of you. It won’t abide in a place of connectivity or peace or ease, or even resonate with that at all.



Separation as Depression [00:20:24]

[00:20:24] And again, I understand this, that when you’re in that place where you feel like everything’s sucking you down the big dark pit, just remember that this world is based on separation. People believe they’re separate bodies in a separate world, separate countries, separate cities, separate roads, everything is separate about it. This is a dysfunctional viewpoint and perception. It makes us forget our connectivity.

[00:20:52] Christian: [00:20:52] And can I ask if we are built from perfection, how does this become so dysfunctional?

[00:20:58] Maureen: [00:20:58] The funny thing is, is you know, we teach according to our beliefs and our beliefs are given to us.  If you watch any little baby that’s being conditioned into  life and family,  you’ll see that they teach them how to eat the way they eat and walk the way they walk and talk the way they talk.

[00:21:14] So people do these things… condition and inculturate children into the world they occupy to keep them safe and secure based on the, you know, the world’s terms.


Waking up to our Ancestor’s history

[00:21:25] So, unless you had highly evolved parents who nurtured your creative spirit and taught you about your True Divine Nature and continually fostered that unique individuality – the part of you that’s Soul-driven – your entire life, then the world that you’ve been  inculturated into since you were a baby and taught to accept is a dysfunction largely based on damage control.

[00:21:49]Now I’d like everybody to pay attention here for a minute, because this is not just for you if you feel that you’re a depressed person, this is for the whole of humanity. This world, the way we are taught to view it and experience it, in which so many people feel that they’re left out and so many people feel that they’ve been dropped and marginalized, is a world that is separate from the knowing part of you that’s Divine. This causes a majority of people on the planet to wake up in the morning, feeling that they have to defend or fend for themselves  and that idea is fundamentally a dysfunction.

[00:22:23]Christian: [00:22:23] Hmm

[00:22:24]Maureen: [00:22:24] It’s a world that we show up to that’s based on our ancestors’ thoughts and beliefs and actions  that those who came before us molded into a reality, trying to create something that felt safe and secure to them.

[00:22:36] Christian: [00:22:36] Yeah.

[00:22:37] Maureen: [00:22:37] You know, my immediate ancestors, my parents and their parents lived through World War II  and  at that time, they were doing the very best they could to bring about a better world.

[00:22:46] Christian: [00:22:46] Hmm.

[00:22:47]Maureen: [00:22:47] And now can you imagine navigating this whole experience of this pandemic with fear being even more evident in your life, with bombs dropping on you and people knocking on your door to kill you or put you in a concentration camp? No food, people fighting over potato? That’s the kind of experiences our ancestors lived through that caused us today to approach life based on damage control and mitigating fear and more importantly, winning at all costs.

[00:23:15] Christian: [00:23:15] Hmm.

[00:23:16] Maureen: [00:23:16] And so they built some of the things that we’re experiencing now based on those kinds of laws and rules and experiences.

[00:23:23]Christian: [00:23:23] Hmm.

[00:23:23] Maureen: [00:23:23] We do things much, much differently when we’re inspired and when we’re connected to Spirit, we evolve much more quickly. We come up with things that are transcendent of problems, not addressing them from within them.

[00:23:40] Christian: [00:23:40] Yeah.

[00:23:40] Maureen: [00:23:40] So we become more genius in our capacity. You know, Einstein was a mystic, he was someone who was connected. He said, you approach life one of two ways, either seeing everything as a miracle or seeing nothing as a miracle.

[00:23:55] Christian: [00:23:55] Hmm.

[00:23:56] Maureen: [00:23:56] In this world of this pandemic, we have miracles at hand because we’re realizing a lot of things that were the status quo do not work

[00:24:04] Christian: [00:24:04] Yeah

[00:24:05] Maureen: [00:24:05] and are not functional for us Awesome Beings. We have more capacity, more resilience, more ingenuity than we’ve been tapping. And just notice if you’re depressed it’s because you’re one of the great ones.

[00:24:20] Christian: [00:24:20] Hmm.

[00:24:21] Maureen: [00:24:21] Whenever someone’s depressed, it’s because they’re looking at situations to label them, instead of going deep inside and saying, “help”.  The challenge with this is that with a world that’s full of dysfunction right now, people don’t necessarily want, like you said, you felt a little bit angry at times when you were depressed. If someone came along and gave you a spiritual answer.

[00:24:45] Christian: [00:24:45] Hmm. It just didn’t feel… it wasn’t satisfying. It was just, you’re telling me that I’m all these things, but you would expect that if something that powerful lived within you, it would come out when you were at your lowest, and it didn’t.  

[00:25:02] Maureen: [00:25:02] It does, because this is how it comes out: whenever you think a thought that’s separate from the Truth of you, it feels like shit.

[00:25:11] Christian: [00:25:11] Hmm.

[00:25:12] Maureen: [00:25:12] It feels bad.

[00:25:13] Christian: [00:25:13] Yeah.

[00:25:14]Maureen: [00:25:14] I want to default to one thing, just to make sure we understand this, that Only Love is Real.

[00:25:19] Christian: [00:25:19] Hmm.

[00:25:20] Maureen: [00:25:20] And nothing real can be threatened.

[00:25:22] Christian: [00:25:22] Hmm.

[00:25:23] Maureen: [00:25:23] And it means that – I’m not saying this is easy but it is possible – that you stop the runaway train of thoughts that are not in your best interest. The Voice of the Soul, the breath that you came in with, and the breath that you’ll leave with has a Voice. It’s a still voice. It’s a Voice of Knowing, it speaks in your heart. It speaks in your gut. It doesn’t speak in your head. And it says you’re perfect. Everything’s all right. Relax. This too shall pass. And then there’s this, and then you arrive.  What you’re looking for is in you. I’m in you, now. I’m here. I will never drop you. As you breathe, you feel me.

[00:26:11] And when it shows up, because it knows who you really are – knows with a capital K who you are – it’s relentless in that it holds peace relentlessly. So when you’re thinking a thought, that’s not in connection with that, or in alignment with that, it doesn’t feel peaceful.

[00:26:29] Christian: [00:26:29] Hmm.

[00:26:30] Maureen: [00:26:30] That’s depression. You’re thinking one disconnected thought after another –  one depressing thought, depressing you – pushing you down, thought after another.

[00:26:42] So I don’t want to just highlight what this is without giving you a way out of that.

[00:26:47] Christian: [00:26:47] Hmm.

[00:26:47] Maureen: [00:26:47] And the way out of that is to first recognize this is the human condition for people who feel that they’re just a body or a function. You know, somebody stocking shelves, somebody’s making a paycheck. Somebody’s doing even amazing jobs, making a lot of money, but they’re doing it from a soul-less perspective or a soul-less place. It’s not connecting them. and they’re not feeling that they’re enriched by every action they take or every breath they take. When someone’s living that at first, you can endure it and pretend that it’s not happening because there are benefits to being in the world  could be a bigger paycheck, or it could be the relationship you thought you wanted.

[00:27:26] Christian: [00:27:26] Hmm.

[00:27:28] Maureen: [00:27:28] But then after a while, that kind of experience of being separate from yourself becomes,  unendurable and that’s when people start to think they’re depressed and not remember why? When did I disconnect from who I was?

[00:27:42] I truly believe that each of us has a child within that, unless you were in a very abusive home that you know how to connect with your brilliance and your creativity, just because you could play. Just because you could play when no one else was watching and you can play and do things and listen to this Voice that some people call the “invisible friend” and listen to that Voice that prompted you and urged you towards delight and fun.

[00:28:07] Because that Voice doesn’t go away. This Voice of the Soul is not a serious voice. When people think of peace, they think of seriousness.

[00:28:14]Christian: [00:28:14] Hmm.

[00:28:15] Maureen: [00:28:15] This is a sincere Voice, not a serious Voice. It’s a sincere Voice that knows who you are, is relentless about who you are and wants you to abide here on earth as an emissary of the Divine, of the Light of the Peace and the Truth from where you came, that you came in with your first breath and you’ll go back to with your last, no matter who you are.



Giving up the idea we’re just bodies separate from each other [00:28:41] When we give up the idea that we’re just bodies separate from each other, we give up a lot of the pain and problem in the world. Think about it. Have you ever had a painful thought or experience in your life that wasn’t in relationship to your body?

[00:28:56]Christian: [00:28:56] No.

[00:28:58] Maureen: [00:28:58] It was about being dismissed or being neglected or being hurt or being harmed or being unsafe in some way. And it always has to do with your body.

[00:29:05] Christian: [00:29:05] Hmm.

[00:29:06] Maureen: [00:29:06] Now think about people who do heroic things, for instance, just because they, for a moment, maybe there was somebody who was always afraid and always in depressed places, and then all of a sudden they are faced with a car accident in front of them. They have to pick up a bumper of a car and help someone get out from underneath it… were they thinking in that moment? Never. They were accessing the Truth of them, the Almighty of them.

[00:29:31] Christian: [00:29:31] Yeah.

[00:29:32] Maureen: [00:29:32] The hardest part about all this, as we got some crazy concept about God as being this person, because we think of ourselves as bodies, that we can only imagine a God as a person

[00:29:43] Christian: [00:29:43] Hmm.

[00:29:44] Maureen: [00:29:44] That’s separate from us that has a judgemental nature and that’s playing some big bad-ass joke on us.

[00:29:49] Christian: [00:29:49] Yeah.

[00:29:50] Maureen: [00:29:50] And that is nothing of what this is really truly like.  It’s a nebulous, all loving, powerful Form- that’s formless at the same time. We embody it to bring it to life and it sustains us kindly, benevolently, mercifully, infinitely, and we show up in a body, to experience what it’s like to feel like we’re separate from that to kind of have our ego satiated that, “Hey, I’m as creative as the Great Creator.”

[00:30:25] Christian: [00:30:25] Hmm.

[00:30:26] Maureen: [00:30:26] “I can show up and, you know, have a life where I’m creating things around me. And I need to see myself as separate from those things in order to get them and attain them and have them and enjoy them. I can’t just abide in a place of perpetual peace. That feels like nothing.”

[00:30:42] Christian: [00:30:42] Yeah. You’re saying that we have this ego that we satiate – isn’t that of God?

[00:30:48] Maureen: [00:30:48] It was supposed to be a divine joke. We have this benevolent, powerful, all knowing, All Being, non-separate entity, which you can see I can’t describe this because you have to be in  separation to describe things.

[00:31:03] I can only describe you and your face and your nose and your lips because I’m looking at them. But tell me to describe my own face right now if I don’t have a mirror in front of me?

[00:31:11] Christian: [00:31:11] Yeah. That’s a good point.

[00:31:12]Maureen: [00:31:12] And I know it exists or I can’t be talking to you right now. I can’t be seeing you right now…

[00:31:18] Christian: [00:31:18] …but you know that you’re there.

[00:31:19] Maureen: [00:31:19] Right. But if I label myself as something, I can’t even see, unless I have a mirror, then what is that? What’s that label? I’m trying to make something finite that’s not.

[00:31:32]That’s God. So this aspect that is only Complete, Pure Love is running the show and we think we’re separate from that. Of course you’re depressed.

[00:31:44] Christian: [00:31:44] Hmm.

[00:31:44] Maureen: [00:31:44] That is the definition of depression to be separate from what is Love.

[00:31:49] Christian: [00:31:49] Hmm.

[00:31:50] Maureen: [00:31:50] That’s all that God is – Love.

[00:31:54] I know you’ve heard this and I heard it a thousand times, but until I was in the throws of that awakening experience I had, I did not understand that that was Truth, Absolute Truth –  that God is Love. So if you’re thinking you can do this on your own, that would be the definition of an ego.

[00:32:11] Why? Why would you want to do any of this alone? Unless you’re having a temper tantrum that says you want it thus, that’s how A Course in Miracles puts it. It was supposed to be a joke. You have the Author of creation –  with a capital A –  God, the loving, powerful entity, that is the sustenance of everything always, ad infinitum. And then you have us who said, well, I can create as well as you can.

[00:32:41] Christian: [00:32:41] Hmm.

[00:32:41] Maureen: [00:32:41] I’m going to create my world.

[00:32:44] Christian: [00:32:44] Yeah.

[00:32:44] Maureen: [00:32:44] And this is it. Now watch what happens if we’re separate from Love. All kinds of stuff. War, famine, disease because we have plenty of food on the planet, but are we sharing it all?

[00:32:55] Christian: [00:32:55] Yeah, no.

[00:32:56] Maureen: [00:32:56] Are we using our ingenuity and our brilliance and our creativity to do things in a wise and wonderful way? Are we polluting and demeaning and disregarding and disrespecting things that are, beautful like nature itself on this planet? We came up with a great dream, Eden- like, and then the more separate we feel there’s your symptoms of dysfunction.



Returning to Ancestor question [00:33:21]

[00:33:21] Christian: [00:33:21] And you’re saying that’s all because of the history of our ancestors of creating from within a problem.

[00:33:28] Maureen: [00:33:28] From believing they were separate and worshiping a God outside of themselves. And forgetting that, you know, you don’t just call on this God and every so often you get a hit of connection. You’re meant to be connected all day, every day. And if you are doing that, you will feel the essence of what this is all about, why you came here. You will feel you are one with life. You won’t be in opposition to that very breath that you’re breathing. That’s sustaining your body. That is the Source and Spirit of you. That is the definition of the Divinity of you.

[00:34:04]A wonderful person out there who has made meditation mainstream, Jon Kabat-Zinn, has helped multiple people with stress reduction, and he made it so normal for people just to focus on their breath with basic Buddhist meditation knowing himself as a Buddhist meditator and practitioner, that that’s the essence of the Divine.  How can you not heal yourself from stress or from pain when you’re connecting deliberately with the Divinity of you, it’s the panacea for everything.



If you feel depressed, recommended first step [00:34:41]

[00:34:41] So if you feel depressed, I highly highly recommend as a first step, just begin to notice your breath. And even if you’re still in this place of depression, let yourself notice your breath while you’re feeling depressed and while you’re thinking a depressing thought and then look for something that you really enjoy, or like, that might be just unique to you. You know, maybe you collected baseball cards when you were a little kid.

[00:35:08] Maybe you like to paint. Maybe you want fix things. Maybe you like a certain kind of food that you don’t let yourself have very often. Let yourself notice what it feels like just to do what’s right in front of you now.

[00:35:22] They call this mind-full-ness because now your mind is FULL of what you’re doing. Typically they emphasize the mind, but I like to emphasize the full, because our Soul is full of light, full of peace, full of ease. And when you’re doing something with mindfulness, slowing down, letting yourself observe, letting yourself, take it all in, in a more vast way,  now you’re resonating with who you truly are.

[00:35:52] If you slow it down, you’ll start to see that your thoughts are racing. The ones that are depressing.

[00:35:58] Christian: [00:35:58] Hmm.

[00:35:59] Maureen: [00:35:59] They’re racing you off the edge of a cliff. Most of the time, they don’t lead to anywhere purposeful. They don’t come full circle. They’re not start to finish because there’s always more depressing thoughts to think.

[00:36:11] Christian: [00:36:11] Hmm.

[00:36:12] Maureen: [00:36:12] So letting yourself just be in that moment while you observe, you’re going to see things about yourself and about your life that you never noticed before.

[00:36:20] I like to use the analogy of someone who goes into the jungle or the forest or the woods. And they go in by themselves and they’re in a rush or they used to being in regular society and they go in the woods or the jungle and they’re having a nice walk, but they really don’t connect and they don’t see things cause they’re just trying to feel a little more, but it’s challenging. And that’s good at least to try.

[00:36:42] Christian: [00:36:42] Yeah.

[00:36:42] Maureen: [00:36:42] And often you’ll find that a rabbit will run out in front of you or birds will dip right in front of you or squirrels or things will play in front of you if you’re in the woods or you’ll see animals and things. But if you get into nature with a naturalist, you’re going to see a world come alive that you never imagined was there before.

[00:36:59] Christian: [00:36:59] Yeah.

[00:37:00] Maureen: [00:37:00] They’re going to point out the things that you would never have seen, you know, an owl peaking out of a tree.

[00:37:06] Christian: [00:37:06] Or like moss…

[00:37:07] Maureen: [00:37:07] Yeah. Or even you could be in a jungle, you’ll see a sloth hanging there that you would have walked right by 10 times and not have noticed.

[00:37:14] And if you’re near the ocean, or if you’re exploring things with people who are the ones who show up deliberately, not touching it to defile it, but appreciating it, recognizing that space, leaving space is key. We’re recognizing that now really tangibly in the midst of this pandemic, that while we show up leaving each other space, leaving personal space between us, letting ourselves begin to resonate with space more. Just notice what you typically fill your space with. Are you adding to space only with beauty and intentionality or are you piling things onto space that make you feel cluttered and disconnected?

[00:38:01] Christian: [00:38:01] Hmm.

[00:38:01] Maureen: [00:38:01] At best, again, a spiritual teacher, who’s helping you to see the way with a new spiritual perspective, what it feels like is they’re, they’re living it to know it and then they can impart to you – just like a naturalist would – “take a look over here. You’ll notice this, take a look in here in your heart. You’ll notice this. Take a look in your mind. You’ll notice this, or just take a look in your mind. What do you notice?”

[00:38:31] Christian: [00:38:31] Hmm.

[00:38:33] Maureen: [00:38:33] And they start to let you perceive in the way that they perceive, which is really just noticing what rides on the Space. The Divine is the Space. Remember if we want to look at what’s most important in this room, it’s going to be, what everyone disregards, it’s the Space, there would be no room without the Space. That’s the Divine.



Final Q: How to alleviate the pain of those who feel alone in this moment? [00:38:55]

[00:38:55]Christian: [00:38:55] That’s completely true. So one last question. We have people who are now sitting in their spaces and they might be alone and they might have those infinite, depressing thoughts that can go on forever and ever, and then they turn on the news and it gets worse and then they go outside and they’re seeing how everyone’s afraid, and they’re just like to hell with this world. They’re damning the world right now. But those same people might have that creative genius to get us out of this mess, you know? What can we do to help them to at least start alleviating some of that?



The World as a Dysfunction

[00:39:34] Maureen: [00:39:34] You just said something so important that I didn’t get a chance to address yet. Typically the most depressed people here are actually the most functional people because they realize this world is a dysfunction and they just don’t know how to place themselves within it or how to operate within it. And it becomes very confusing and ultimately they want to give up. So typically the ones who have the darkest times are the brightest souls.

[00:39:58] Christian: [00:39:58] Hmm.

[00:39:58] Maureen: [00:39:58] And that’s what I really want to say to people out there. If you are feeling depressed or like you are insignificant or powerless in a world, the way we have it set up right now, then begin to spend more quality time with that Voice of your own best interest. Just your breath, just the part of you that thinks of you in ways that are vastly appreciative and knowing who you really are. The one who came in here that sensitive that way came in with antenna for days, because you knew how to feel beyond yourself. You knew we were supposed to be connected. . So as you disconnect from who you Truly are, just by the very practice of beating yourself up, you can’t show up for the reason that you came here.

[00:40:48] Christian: [00:40:48] Hmm.

[00:40:48] Maureen: [00:40:48] You came here to evolve this planet to let people admit that we’re so much more loving and sensitive than we could imagine that the reason we have the sensitivity is that sometimes these human bodies can make us numb to other people or feel separate enough from them that we are callous or uncaring or have judgments that are really ridiculous, that don’t serve anyone on the planet.

[00:41:11] If  you’ve conditioned yourself to think in judgmental ways, you will be depressed. Judgment is the thing that’s like a black curtain that severs us and separates us from who we truly are. If we’re all Light, and all Love in our Truest Nature – and you don’t have to take my word for it,  that’s what Miracle Renegade is for

[00:41:29] Christian: [00:41:29] Yeah.

[00:41:29] Maureen: [00:41:29] We’re going to walk you in there relentlessly, ask these challenging, hard questions that Christian is asking. And  you can ask as well, just join us on our website and you’ll see how you can do that…

[00:41:41] If you are  someone who feels this kind of agonizing separation and pain and depression, I want to let you know it’s because you’re more aware than you believe you are. It’s because you want to step out of that mode of separation and be more connected and be more resonant with who you really are because you’re tired and you’re sick of being in this world where people seem callous and cold to who we Truly are.

[00:42:08] Just let yourself relax and take care of yourself first. Remember, this is an inside job, so we’re just here right now, shifting our minds. Miracle Mindedness helps you shift your mind – we’re being like the naturalist in the jungle with you – start to see things differently, see that there’s another way of looking at things. Don’t beat yourself up. Don’t try to do anything, just listen with awareness and receptivity. Be nonjudgmental. Be openhearted, be open minded.

[00:42:35] Then you’ll find yourself moving into Miracle Matrixing –  where you begin to live this to own it, to know it. You don’t have to take my word for it. Then you’re going to see miracles paving your way all day, every day, you’re going to feel more lighthearted. You’re going to be out of depression because you’re going to realize as you take good care of yourself and love yourself the way the true part of yourself loves you. You’re going to have epiphany after epiphany about your self worth and about how important you are to this planet right now.

[00:43:04] You wouldn’t be here if you weren’t here to help.

[00:43:08] Christian: [00:43:08] Yeah.

[00:43:08] Maureen: [00:43:08] To evolve this place, let go of the resistance as much as you possibly can. Not only to your own brilliance, but to needing to judge or assess anything else outside yourself right now, if you’re only navigating this world based on damage control or assessing the things that are outside of you to see if it’s safe or not, then you’re going to always feel upended  eventually.

[00:43:31] But if you’re stopping and asking yourself what to do and how to do it first and foremost, you might slip here and there. That’s just being human. The outside world feels more apparent –  you can touch it and taste it and use your five senses within it. So you’ve got to make a concerted effort to sit back and meditate or read reflective literature or inspirational books… not with the aspect of taking any ones one take on things for law. But taking it inside and incorporating it and feeling what it feels like in your heart of hearts, because there’s such a beautiful path of evolution that your own particular Soul wants to take.

[00:44:14] Christian: [00:44:14] Yeah. I just want to add on that sometimes it’s not even a spiritual thing. Like people can do this through music, they can do this through art. They can do this through games.

[00:44:23] Maureen: [00:44:23] Mmhmm.

[00:44:24] Christian: [00:44:24] I’ve learned so much on how I problem solve by being really bad at video games. And I see like, oh, I give up after like the third attempt and stuff. And that’s really like shifted me into better problem solving skills. So  the world is your teacher.

[00:44:42] Maureen: [00:44:42] You touched upon a really important spiritual truth – capital T truth – that the spirit of you will use everything for good. Everything is a way back home. So the further you stray, the more profoundly it’ll pull you back. So nothing is off the path because some people really need to be hit over the head 10 times before they get something. No problem. The Spirit is eternally patient, eternally oriented. It doesn’t have this, do it now. Or don’t come back to me kind of thing. It’s never dismissive. It makes you aware that you’re cherished and loved no matter what. So the Spirit of us is just saying, have at it, enjoy this experience because even if you fall flat on your face, you still will rise.

[00:45:34] There’s no end to this. We never get it done. It’s Eternal. We never get it wrong because we’re always evolving. And sometimes we learn the most profound lessons and knowing from our biggest mistakes.

[00:45:48] Christian: [00:45:48] Yeah, I just can’t wait to see what comes of this whole pandemic thing. If we learn that this isn’t going to be the first time that this is going to happen, if we  put more research into virology and get people who are creative to put money behind them for this research, you know?

[00:46:06] Maureen: [00:46:06] Yeah. And not only that to come together in real cooperation

[00:46:10] Christian: [00:46:10] Yeah.

[00:46:10] Maureen: [00:46:10] Country to country, to admit that we’re one world and that we have to start treating this planet with a great deal more respect. That it can shake us off and we will  have to figure out another way to evolve as these beings that had believed we were humans so substantially. But it would be a nice thing if we could really evolve enough through circumstances like this that are hitting every corner of the earth . If we could really learn, let’s cherish each other more. Let’s cherish each and every breath a lot more. Let’s cherish each other far and wide on this planet and admit that we work a lot better and are much more effective and much more wise and radiant when we choose to do this with the orientation towards win-win as one.



Outtro [00:47:02] Christian: [00:47:02] So, for homework, essentially it’s just start with the breath –  connect with your breath in the morning.

[00:47:09] Maureen: [00:47:09] Yeah.

[00:47:09] Christian: [00:47:09] And then connect that night.

[00:47:10] Maureen: [00:47:10] Yeah. We’re going to be posting meditations that really help with this just to make it more substantial and practical. Try to keep them brief enough that if you’re a beginner and just jumping in that they won’t overwhelm you. We’ll have all kinds of things like  resources that are available on the website and on our Patreon pages. So everything starts with Miracle Renegade at:  and

[00:47:35] Christian: [00:47:35] Yeah.

[00:47:36] Maureen: [00:47:36] So right now we’re the beginning of this movement. So join in any capacity, you feel that you can add your light to this. Meaning we want a beautiful tribe of people who are evolving willingly and don’t need so much pain and problems to prompt them towards admitting who they truly are.

[00:47:54] Christian: [00:47:54] Yeah, this is a ripe time for change.

[00:47:57] Maureen: [00:47:57] Yeah. Really ripe time for change. So thank you again, Christian, for being so candid and beginning of this conversation for anyone else who’s out there that has been feeling depressed or has experienced depression remember often by sharing the true essence of the lessons you’ve learned from this, even if it’s just that you can endure being with yourself like some sages have, and recognizing that there is more, there has to be more than this.

[00:48:26] There is, and it’s within you. You don’t have to reach really far to find it. Just begin to breathe deliberately, let go of judgmental thoughts, self judgmental thoughts, the best you can. If there’s some kind of story that you’re running in your mind about how you’re not good enough or you’re bad, or that you don’t deserve things. That’s really typically the stories that the ego really takes and runs with. And that’s why it feels like depression  because it’s one depressing thought after another. Just try to give yourself a pattern interrupt, meaning look for anything that can feel joyful right now to you, that can make you feel more relaxed.

[00:49:06] It’s not as easy with this pandemic to get out into nature and be by yourself, but see if that’s possible for you. Sometimes just watching out your window and seeing how nature does it, like how birds are flying and they don’t hit each other and how squirrels can walk up to each other and all of a sudden begin being play buddies when they didn’t even seem to look at each other before that, there’s a lot going on.

[00:49:32] And I do have to say this. The Spirit of you is always connected, knows intimately what you need most now. So if you just whisper that prayer to yourself within your heart of hearts, deeply, sincerely, “help me”, and then just don’t do anything. Just relax for a minute. Don’t think another thought that’s self-effacing or beaten you up or judgmental.

[00:49:54] Just let yourself relax for a moment. And I promise you that still small Voice that speaks in your heart and in your gut is going to start saying things to you like, “If only you could see yourself, the way that I see you, if only you knew your perfection, if only you knew how much you’re loved, if only you knew how important you are, your smile, your presence. If only you could treat yourself the way that I love you, then you’d know who you truly are.”

[00:50:27] Just relax, that Voice is in there. Let yourself relax. And let yourself just really ask for it, to emerge within you to be the one that really speaks within you, that tells you what to do, where to go, what to say, and to whom, and then just align with that and do it.

[00:50:43] And don’t do anything more. You’re precious. You’re loved. You’re important. You’re valued. You’re a Miracle Renegade.